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Puzzled

How many people does it take to say that the gender inbalance in SF outlets is a problem before it's seriously acknowledged, and accepted, as a problem?

Reasons, blame, motives, agenda, solutions and reason aside.

When is it allowed to be just ... an issue?

When will we be able to get past that discussion and start looking deeper at the more interesting aspects of it?


Comments

cassiphone
Jan. 12th, 2009 02:21 am (UTC)
Ha, well it requires a lot of people to resist panicking about the potential loss of a fraction of privilege for ten minutes, long enough to actually listen to what we have to say.

Or, you know. You join groups like Broad Universe or Wiscon and find people to discuss it with who will not start getting hysterical at you for daring to broach the topic. Sadly, this is the internet. There is very little sane here.

girliejones
Jan. 12th, 2009 02:22 am (UTC)
Too true.

angriest
Jan. 12th, 2009 02:26 am (UTC)
But you see those of us in the priveleged position have been there for our entire lives, so we don't recognise it even when it's all around us. So it all just comes across as crazy people ranting at something that's invisible to us. (He says, crassly generalising every man in the SF/F community.)
girliejones
Jan. 12th, 2009 02:30 am (UTC)
That was my point though yesterday. If you don't see it, does it not exist or does it just not exist *for you*.
angriest
Jan. 12th, 2009 02:45 am (UTC)
See below, but I totally believe the latter - as a priveleged male benefiting from a patriarchal societal structure.
cassiphone
Jan. 12th, 2009 02:34 am (UTC)
Heh I'm trying to figure out if you're being ironic or not because that is SO TRUE.

So many times, a woman says "look, here's this thing over here, it's sexism"

And a man hears "omg you are so sexist" and replies "but I'm not sexist."

And the woman hears "what are you talking about, crazy woman, there's no such thing as sexism" and quite rightly bops him on the head.

callistra
Jan. 12th, 2009 02:35 am (UTC)
Hahahahahahaha
No cookie for any one!
girliejones
Jan. 12th, 2009 02:36 am (UTC)
Yup.
angriest
Jan. 12th, 2009 02:44 am (UTC)
No, not ironic at all. When the patriarchy is structural rather than intentional, those in the priveleged position won't recognise that it's there as a rule. "I'm a man, and I don't act in a sexist fashion," we will say, when of course we don't have to - the system does it for us.

Not that I need to tell anyone in this thread any of this. I think we're all pretty educated on how this stuff happens and works (or doesn't, as the case may be).
cassiphone
Jan. 12th, 2009 03:10 am (UTC)
*hugs* see I shouldn't be giving you extra credit for being a bloke saying this stuff right now, but I totally am. You give me faith that it won't always be an uphill struggle.

And what makes me sad is how many people should be educated to think this way, and aren't. Like, otherwise really smart people who are so busy shouting "but I'm not sexist" they can't hear any of the rest of the dialogue.

Or, my other favourite one "it should be all about the art, not the gender of the person creating it!" Which, you know, is just fine if gender in no way impinges on your ability to get your art seen and heard, but many of us don't have that luxury.
angriest
Jan. 12th, 2009 03:14 am (UTC)
No, no. Give me the extra credit - I crave all the privilege I can get. : )

The idea of "it's about art, not gender" is based on the assumption that one's gender never influences the art.
cassiphone
Jan. 12th, 2009 03:25 am (UTC)
Oh, you're good. :D
(no subject) - girliejones - Jan. 12th, 2009 04:23 am (UTC) - Expand
callistra
Jan. 12th, 2009 03:15 am (UTC)
angriest is pretty awesome
:)
pecunium
Jan. 13th, 2009 03:56 am (UTC)
I have (at the risk of damaging my shoulder) that problem in reverse. When I say something which seems perfectly rational to me, I get the, "OMG, you are so wonderful/enlightened/etc.) and I don't get it.

It seems things like equal pay for equal work, etc., just ought to be.

But (and this is a strange bit of privilege, I think) it seems I am wrong, and not just is the system tilted wrong (which the protesting of makes me seem special, which seems to me ought ought to be something which wasn't so rare as it appears to be), but that a huge number of men don't get it.

Which saddens me. It explains why the fight is so hard, it's not just reactionary types, but regular joes who can't get their head around the idea there is both privilege, and problems as a result of it.

Even more depressing to think on how much better it is, than it was.
(no subject) - cassiphone - Jan. 13th, 2009 09:23 am (UTC) - Expand
capnoblivious
Jan. 12th, 2009 02:38 am (UTC)
*bites tongue on hysterical response*

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